Gay and Right on the Internet...
The Independent Gay Forum has a nice article on the various conservative gay web sites...and GayandRight gets a listing.
Two nearly simultaneous developments changed this. First, beginning in the 1980s mainstream gay people, whose wide spectrum of political views mirrors the country's, came out of the closet in large numbers. They could not be ignored. And they could not understand why their sexual orientation necessarily entailed support for things like high marginal tax rates or liberal abortion laws.Check out the article...there's some good blogs and web sites listed.
Second, the flowering of the Internet in the mid-1990s ensured that anybody could become a self-publisher whose views were immediately available to millions of people.
The day of the opinion gatekeeper is finished. What has taken its place? A cacophony of views, including those of gay conservatives and libertarians, whose energy and intellectual vibrance seems disproportionate to their numbers.
posted by GayandRight @ 3:38 PM
21 Comments:
Congrats Sodomite-and-OftenWrong
You have many well-thought out and logical views (eg. prolife).. however, your urge to have anal sex clouds your view on same-sex issues. You ignore the scientific/medical evidence about same-sex attraction, anal sex dangers, gay sex dangers, and social science evidence against gay adoption..
enough with this craziness about anal sex. I don't ignore the scientific evidence because it is clear. Sexual orientation is innate, and cannot be changed.
By the way, I do support abortion...although I do think there should be some limits and that we should have a law in Canada.
"Sexual orientation is innate, and cannot be changed. "
WRONG!!!
The psychiatrist who led the team that deleted homosexuality from the diagnostic manual in 1973, now says homosexuality may sometimes be changeable.
READ the SPITZER study with an open mind!!!!!!! The truth will set you free!
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what gestation week should pre-born babies not be killed??
Anonymous,
In your case, I'd say the sky is the limit.
Narfster... not funny and very hateful to want someone killed..
====================
The TRUTH will set you FREE!!
Please don't ever let these assholes who hide behing a wall of anonymity get to you...
Toronto Tory
Given the gay-agenda terrorists (eg. attacks on churches hosting exgay conferences), it is not inappropriate to protect my family and I from attacks by remaining anonymous.
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The it Sodomite-and-SometimesRight that keep bringing up anal sex etc.. his damn blog is called "gay" and gay is virtually synonymous with anal sex.
If I found a blog out there constantly labelling itself heterosexual, then the topic would be het sex..
jsut go google "gay"
Gaycanada.com comes up.. within 2 clicks you get to stuff about anal sex..
gay and anal sex are virtually synonymous..
Google "Mary Stachowicz"
if you want to read about gays killing folks for their beliefs..
What a bunch of anonymous idiots. You remain anonymous not for fear of retaliation, but for fear of being exposed as illiterate morons with a keyboard. It's amazing you people (or person) can even manage to strike the keys and communicate in the same language.
And "gay" also refers to lesbians, moronymous. There's no anal sex between lesbians.
Just keep posting the good news, Fred, I'm at least happy every time the hill of positive research on homosexuality begins to look more and more like a mountain.
Hey, moronymous: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!
All I have to say to mr. Anon is 'IP address'. Every time you post, blogger logs your IP address, people can look it up.
That said, while anon is a total moron I agree with him on one thing, sexual orientation isn't innate. It isn't a choice either. I suspect it is somewhere in between. There's probably a mild genetic predisposition, and the rest is probably the result of socialization. One should be careful about calling it 'innate'. The quest for a 'gay gene' has been abandoned for years, after homosexual lobby groups chose to abandon the project. There's big ethical concerns over the findings. If a gay gene is found, and some gay people don't have it, what does that mean? How about heterosexuals if they have it, does that change who they are? If it is the result of a malformed chromosome, does that make gay people mutants? These are just some of the reasons funding for it was abandoned.
For some reason modern society (see my site for more on this modernism thing) sees genetics as being more important than socialization, or somehow more real. I can tell you, as a product of my own socialization, that there are things in my identity which are as tied to my sense of self as Gay and Right's sexual orientation is to his. Just because something is socialized rather than innate doesn't render it any less powerful or influential.
Also, let me take this opportunity, as a Christian, to apologize for anything idiot christians might say to you or about you. Jesus commanded us to love our neighbours, and then when asked who our neighbour was, basically said: 'pick the kind of person you most despise, they are included in the category 'neighbour'. People who insult people for being gay (or do worse) are not following the teachings of Jesus, and I apologize on their behalf.
I believe that homosexuality is innate...but that doesn't mean it is genetic. It is most probably part genetic and part biological. The biological part is probably a wash of certain hormones during pregnancy. Homosexuality is not environmental - afterall, gays grow up in heterosexual environments.
>Homosexuality is not environmental -
>afterall, gays grow up in heterosexual
>environments.
No offense, but I don't buy that. The culture may be overwhelmingly heterosexually oriented (though that is shifting - see Brokeback Mountain et al.), but within the wider culture there are subcultures, and individual social groups which may or may not be. I am not a professional sociologist, so I can't cite the references, but I do know, for example, that there is a least a weak correlation between homosexual orientation and being raised without a male parent or significant male role model. Now, I'm being very careful how I say that, because I don't want to leave the impression that 'gays are the by-product of bad family situations', because that is very much oversimplifying what I think are significant factors in gender and orientation development.
The reality is that socialization plays a huge role in who we are. I can tell you that the results of my almost entirely idyllic childhood and adolescence have resulted in my becoming an argumentative and competitive adult. I've never been abused, I had two parents who loved and supported me, and yet I still developed those traits as a result of my own socialization. Its not much of a stretch to say that there is a strong role for socialization in determining sexual orientation.
In other words, one isn't born gay, one becomes gay.
Now, the important thing to question is: why do you want it to be innate? I don't mean this to sound accusing, because I have no desire to make it sound so, but you've stated quite clearly twice that you think it is innate, all I'd like is for you to ask yourself - why does it matter?
Our modern society prejudices against nurture in favour of nature. If its 'innate' then its 'natural' and in our culture its pretty hard to use the word 'natural' in a negative way. Which, I suspect is why so many homosexually oriented people gravitate to describing their sexual orientation in such terms, it makes it harder for the bigots out there (like Mr. Anon) to be the assholes they want to be, and repositions the battlefield in your favour. That, however, doesn't make the assumption true.
I'm an odd Christian type of guy, in that I'm not homophobic, and I've had the privilege of knowing a lot of fine homosexual people (mostly gay men). So, these issues are things I've really grappled with over the years.
Anonymous:
Is it homosexuality that you have a problem with, or simply anal sex?
Paul, I don't think innate = natural.
There are many things that people are born with. They're not all decribed as "natural".
Paul, you are just plain wrong. It's very fashionable, particularly in these times of father-less families in the west, to link homosexuality with lack of fathers. However, I lived in Asia for 5 1/2 years, particularly in Singapore, where there is a very low divorce rate, and homosexuality is every bit as noticeable as here. Same in Hong Kong, same in China...gee, same in any country I've been to or lived in (Israel, UK, US).....
Homosexuality has been found in every society across geography and time. Most gay poetry is written in Arabic...I am sure that gay people in Arabic countries are not suffering lack of male role models.
Your theory just doesn't wash....by the way, I use innate in the sense that sexual orientation cannot be changed....
The whole father issue CAN be attributed to boys growing up with same sex attraction.. see references 17-22..
READ THE SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!! Don't jsut believe what you WANT to believe!!
there are lots of causes:
Individuals experience same-sex attractions for different reasons. While there are similarities in the patterns of development, each individual has a unique, personal history. In the histories of persons who experience same-sex attraction, one frequently finds one or more of the following:
· Alienation from the father in early childhood because the father was perceived as hostile or distant, violent or alcoholic (Apperson 1968[17]; Bene 1965[18]; Bieber 1962[19]; Fisher 1996[20]; Pillard 1988[21]; Sipova 1983[22])
· Mother was overprotective (boys) (Bieber, T. 1971[23]; Bieber 1962[24]; Snortum 1969[25])
· Mother was needy and demanding (boys) (Fitzgibbons 1999[26])
· Mother emotionally unavailable (girls) (Bradley 1997[27]; Eisenbud 1982[28])
· Parents failed to encourage same-sex identification (Zucker 1995[29])
· Lack of rough and tumble play (boys) (Friedman 1980[30]; Hadden 1967a [31])
· Failure to identify with same/sex peers (Hockenberry 1987[32]; Whitman 1977[33])
· Dislike of team sports (boys) (Thompson 1973[34])
· Lack of hand/eye coordination and resultant teasing by peers (boys) (Bailey 1993[35]; Fitzgibbons 1999[36]; Newman 1976[37])
· Sexual abuse or rape (Beitchman 1991[38]; Bradley 1997[39]; Engel 1981[40]; Finkelhor 1984; Gundlach 1967[41])
· Social phobia or extreme shyness (Golwyn 1993[42])
· Parental loss through death or divorce (Zucker 1995)
· Separation from parent during critical developmental stages (Zucker 1995)
In some cases, same-sex attraction or activity occurs in a patient with other psychological diagnosis, such as:
· major depression (Fergusson 1999[43])
· suicidal ideation (Herrell 1999)
· generalized anxiety disorder
· substance abuse
· conduct disorder in adolescents
· borderline personality disorder (Parris 1993[44]; Zubenko 1987[45])
· schizophrenia (Gonsiorek 1982) [46]
· pathological narcissism (Bychowski 1954[47]; Kaplan 1967[48])
In a few cases, homosexual behavior appears later in life as a response to a trauma such as abortion, (Berger 1994[49]; de Beauvoir 1953) or profound loneliness (Fitzgibbons 1999).
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17] Apperson: "The importance of the relationship -- or lack of it -- with the father is again emphasized, with the homosexual S[ubject]s showing marked difference from the controls in perceiving the father more as critical, impatient, and rejecting, and less as the socializing agent." (p.206)
[18] Bene: "Far fewer homosexual than married men thought that their fathers had been cheerful, helpful, reliable, kind or understanding, while far more felt that their fathers had no time for them, had not loved them, and had made them feel unhappy." (p.805)
[19] Bieber : "Profound interpersonal disturbance is unremitting in the homosexual father-son relationship. Not one of the fathers (of homosexual sons)... could be regarded as reasonably 'normal' parents." (p.114) "We have come to the conclusion that a constructive, supportive, warmly related father precludes the possibility of a homosexual son; he acts as a neutralizing protective agent should the mother make seductive or close-binding attempts." (p.311)
[20] Fisher: "Fisher analyzed the 58 studies and reported that a large majority supported the notion that homosexual sons perceive their fathers as negative, distant, unfriendly figures." A review of literature on childhood experiences of male homosexuals found "With only a few exceptions, the male homosexual declares that father has been a negative influence in his life. He refers to him with such adjectives as cold, unfriendly punishing, brutal, distant, detached. There is not a single even moderately well controlled study that we have been able to locate in which male homosexuals refer to father positively or affectionately." (p.136)
[21] Pillard: "Alcoholism occurs more frequently in fathers of HS[homosexual] men (14 fathers of HS men versus five fathers of HT[Heterosexual] men.)" (p.54)
[22] Sipova: "It was found that the fathers of homosexuals and transsexuals were more hostile and less dominant than the fathers of the control group and hence less desirable identification models." (p.75)
[23] Bieber: "In about 75 per cent of the cases, the mothers had had an inappropriately close, binding, and intimate bond with their sons. More than half of these mothers were described as seductive. They were possessive, dominating, overprotective, and demasculinizing." (p.524)
[24] Bieber: "By the time the H[homosexual]-son has reached the preadolescent period, he has suffered a diffuse personality disorder. Maternal over-anxiety about health and injury, restriction of activities normative for the son's age and potential, interference with assertive behavior, demasculinizing attitudes, and interference with sexuality -- interpenetrating with paternal rejection, hostility, and lack of support -- produce an excessively fearful child, pathologically dependent upon his mother and beset by feelings of inadequacy, impotence, and self-contempt. He is reluctant to participate in boyhood activities thought to be physically injurious -- usually grossly overestimated. His peer group responds with humiliating name-calling and often with physical attack which timidity tends to invite among children... Thus he is deprived of important empathic interaction which peer groups provide." (p.316)
[25] Snortum studied 46 males separated from military service because of homosexual behavior and concluded: "It appears that the pathological interplay between a close-binding, controlling mothers and a rejecting and detached father is not unique to the subculture of sophisticated, upper-middle-class families who engage psychoanalysts." (p.769)
[26] Fitzgibbons: "The second most common cause of SSAD [same sex attraction disorder] among males is mistrust of women's love... Male children in fatherless homes often feel overly responsible for their mothers. As they enter their adolescence, they may come to view female love as draining and exhausting." (p.89)
[27] Bradley: "Girls with GID ...have difficulty connecting with their mothers, who are perceived as weak and ineffective. We see this perception as arising from the high levels of psychopathology observed in these mothers, especially severe depression and borderline personality disorder." (p.877)
[28] Eisenbud "Broken homes and alcoholic conditions in Lesbian women's early backgrounds as well as inadequate mothering, afford no further chance of warm inclusion. The death of a beloved mother leaves cold isolation. Even when mother is present, the Lesbian girl frequently experiences her withdrawal from her after 18 months." (p.98-99)
[29] Zucker: "...we feel that parental tolerance of cross-gender behavior at the time of its emergence is instrumental in allowing the behavior to develop...What is unique in the situation with children who develop a gender identity disorder is the co-occurrence of a multitude of factors at a sensitive period in the child's development -- that is, most typically in the first few years of life, the period of gender identity formation and consolation. There must be a sufficient numbers of factors to induce a state of inner insecurity in the child, such that he or she requires a defensive solution to deal with anxiety. This must occur in a context in which the child perceives that the opposite-sex role provides a sense of safety or security."(p.259) "... we were unable to identify in any case reports a clinician who felt that the parents unequivocally encouraged a masculine identity in their sons." (p.277)
[30] Friedman: "Thirteen of the 17 homosexual subjects (76%) reported chronic, persistent terror of fighting with other boys during the juvenile and early adolescent period. The intensity of this fear approximated a panic reaction. To the best of their recall, these boys never responded to challenge from a male peer with counter-challenge, threat, or attack. the pervasive dread of male-male peer aggression was a powerful organizing force in their minds. Anticipatory anxiety resulted in phobic responses to social activities; the fantasy that fighting might occur led to avoidance of wide variety of social interactions, especially rough-and-tumble activities (defined in our investigation as body-contact sports such as football and soccer). "These subjects reported that painful loss of self-esteem and loneliness resulted from their extreme aversion to juvenile peer aggressive interactions. All but one (12 of 13) were chronically hungry for closeness with other boys. Unable to overcome their dread of potential aggression in order to win respect and acceptance, these boys were labeled "sissies" by peers. These 12 subjects related that they had the lowest possible peer status during juvenile and early adolescent years. Alternately ostracized and scapegoated, they were the targets of continual humiliation. All of these boys denied effeminacy..." (p.432-433) "No pre-homosexual youngster had any degree of experience with fighting or rough-and-tumble during the juvenile years. None engaged in even the modest juvenile sex-typed interactions described by the least aggressive heterosexual youngster." (p.434)
[31] Hadden: "In analytical examination of the pre-school period of life it is usually revealed that the boy who became homosexual never felt accepted by and never felt comfortable in relationships with his age peers. Quite often because of parental interference he was prevented from participation in the play activities with other children and had little opportunity of running, romping, rolling around, tugging, wrestling, and scrambling with his peers from the toddling stage to the kindergarten or school age." (p.78)
[32] Hockenberry: "The conclusion was made that the five item function (playing with boys, preferring boys' games, imagining self as a sport figure, reading adventure and sports stories, considered a "sissy") was the most potent and parsimonious discriminator among adult males for sexual orientation. It was similarly noted that the absence of masculine behaviors and traits appeared to be a more powerful predictor of later homosexual orientation than the traditionally feminine or cross-sexed traits and behaviors." (p.475)
[33] Whitam developed and administered a six item inventory to 206 homosexual and 78 heterosexual male respondents regarding their childhood interests in cross-dressing, playing with dolls preferences for affiliating with girls and older women, being regarded as a "sissy" by peers, and the nature of one's childhood sex play. Virtually all of the homosexuals (97%) reported possessing one or more of these "childhood indicators," whereas 74% of the heterosexual subjects reported a complete absence of any of the indicators in their childhood. (In Hockenberry, p.476)
[34] Thompson compared 127 male homosexuals with 123 controls: "The seven most discriminating items in order from the highest were: (a) played baseball... with homosexuals concentrating on never or sometimes...;(b) played competitive group games (homosexuals never or sometimes...); (c) child spent time with father (homosexuals, very little...); (d) physical makeup as a child (homosexuals, frail, clumsy, or coordinated, heterosexuals, athletic); (e) felt accepted by father (homosexuals, mildly or no...); (f) played with boys before adolescence (homosexuals, sometimes...); and (g) mother insisted on being center of child's attention (homosexuals, often or always...)"(p.123)
[35] Bailey: "Male homosexuals were remembered by their mothers as less masculine and more non-athletic." (p.44)
[36] Fitzgibbons: "Weak masculine identity is easily identified and, in my clinical experience, is a major cause of SSAD in men. Surprisingly, it can be an outgrowth of weak eye-hand coordination which results in an inability to play sports well. This condition is usually accompanied by severe peer rejection. .The 'sports wound' will negatively affect the boy's image of himself, his relationship with peers, his gender identity, and his body image." (p.88)
[37] Newman: "Experiences of being ostracized and ridiculed may play a more important role than has been recognized in the total abandonment of the male role at a later time." (p.687)
[38] Beitchman: "Among adolescents, commonly reported sequalae (of child sexual abuse) include sexual dissatisfaction, promiscuity, homosexuality, and an increased risk for re-victimization. (p.537)
[39] Bradley: "In our female adolescents with GID, a history of sexual abuse or fears of sexual aggression has appeared commonly." (p.878)
[40] Engel: "Some lesbian patients [victims of sexual abuse] go through a time of confusion, not being sure whether they are with women out of choice or whether it is just because they are afraid, angry, and repulsed by men due to the sexual abuse." (p.193)
[41] Gundlach reported that 39 of 217 lesbians versus 15 of 231 non-lesbians reported they were objects of rape or attempted rape at age 15 or under. (p.62)
[42] Golwyn: "We conclude that social phobia may be a hidden contributing factor in some instances of homosexual behavior." (p.40)
[43] Fergusson et al found that in a birth cohort sample the gay, lesbian, bisexual subjects has significantly higher rates of: Suicidal Ideation (67.9%/29.0%), Suicide Attempt (32.1%/7.1%), and psychiatric disorders age 14 -21 -- Major depression (71.4%/38.2%), Generalized anxiety disorder (28.5%/12.5%), conduct disorder (32.1%/11.0%), Nicotine dependence (64.3%/26.7%), Other substance abuse/dependence (60.7%/44.3%), Multiple disorders (78.6%/38.2%) than the heterosexual sample. (p.879)
[44] Parris in a study of consecutive admissions found that the rate of homosexuality in the BPD [Borderline Personality Disorder] sample was 16.7%, as compared with 1.7% in the non-BPD comparison group. The homosexual BPD group had a rate of overall Childhood Sexual Abuse rate of 100% as compared to 37.3% for the heterosexual BPD group. "It is interesting that 3 out of 10 homosexual borderline patients also reported father-son incest." (p.59)
[45] Zubenko: "Homosexuality was 10 times more common among the men and six times more common among the women with borderline personality disorder than in the general population or in a depressed control group." (p.748)
[46] Gonsiorek discusses the treatment of homosexuals who are also schizophrenic. (p.12)
>Paul, you are just plain wrong.
I don't think it is as easy as saying 'you're wrong, I'm right'. This isn't exactly an easy question, I think it should be treated as a difficult one, not airbrushed.
>It's very fashionable, particularly in
>these times of father-less families in
>the west, to link homosexuality with
>lack of fathers.
Well, there have been some studies linking it, but that's not what I'm drawing it from. Studies mean less to me than real life experiences. While its certainly not true in every case, the gay people I've known, had coffee with, worked with and basically lived life with have in conversation mentioned their struggles within family. Some of those were certainly related to coming out, which is unfortunate (the one institution in which love should be unconditional sometimes isn't, that's a tragedy), but many others weren't. Father's who died while they were an infant, divorces, abusive fathers, all sorts of that kind of dysfunction. I'm certainly not applying that across every gay person, but to me it stands out as beyond mere anecdotal evidence. Perhaps its possible that in these cases its socialized and in others its not, who knows? That is why we're discussing it, right? To try and learn about it.
>However, I lived in Asia for 5 1/2
>years, particularly in Singapore,
>where there is a very low divorce
>rate, and homosexuality is every bit
>as noticeable as here.
Family dysfunction is not limited to the west by any means. It could be that absentee dads are less contributory there, but perhaps other dysfunctions take that space. For example, I know many young asian Canadians who have issues with their dads being distant or inexpressive in their love (which from what I understand is a bit of a cultural thing).
>Homosexuality has been found in every
>society across geography and time.
And every society and culture shares socialization. They may do it in different ways, but every culture deals with the same issues. We may be different, but we're more the same than different.
>Most gay poetry is written in
>Arabic...I am sure that gay people in
>Arabic countries are not suffering
>lack of male role models.
No, but they may have a culture which distorts masculinity in dangerous ways, resulting in new forms of familial dysfunction. For example, the honor/shame system could create all sorts of dysfunction.
I want to be careful though, lest you get the impression that I think homosexuality is a psychological illness. I don't. Believing a person's identity is connected to their socialization experience is not the same as saying that they are a product of dysfunction, and I really don't want to come across as saying that. So, if I have done so, I humbly ask for your forgiveness.
>Your theory just doesn't wash....by
>the way, I use innate in the sense
>that sexual orientation cannot be
>changed....
Innate means either present from birth or acquired without learning or conditioning. Anything which is 'developed' is not innate. I do not believe that sexual orientation is binary (you're either gay or not). Its not like the doctor holds you up at birth and says, 'Congratulations, she's a Lesbian'. All I'm saying is that homosexuality, while possibly mildly genetically predisposed, is the result of a procss of development, rather than an in-born trait. Whether or not that trait is changeable is another discussion for another day (and one you and I will likely agree on more than we disagree).
Anonymous pretty much described *everyone* in some way in that post.
Anonymous' conclusion must be that the entire world is gay.
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